A Conversation with Mr Adhir Mane, CHRO, Lifestyle Business, Raymond Ltd.
About the speaker:
Mr. Adhir Mane has over 28 years of experience working in leading companies like Cisco, Mahindra & Mahindra, Piramal Healthcare, Reliance Industries, Warner-Lambert, which is now Pfizer, VSF, and the Landmark Group. A certified HR analytics professional, he specializes in HR strategy and has handled HR across geographies in the UK, Canada, and the Middle East.
The Future is IoT and Humanoids
Mr. Adhir Mane: The era of disruptions is already there, the entire e-commerce spaces, just going and busting through the seams. The future looks at the systems of IoT, network teams, maybe sensors, the whole IoT process will come to the houses. The other big change along with IoT that will happen in the future is, of course, the coming home of humanoids, and robots, etc. That will be a bigger challenge for how organizations manage the presence of humanoids in workplaces and what are the cultural dimensions?
What are the interaction dimensions of employees and these humanoids which are going to be the future? Many places already started having digital assistance, virtual assistance as the case may be. But with the advent of humanoids in workplaces, I think there will be a huge change in lift-off and a shift of chain that we'll see.
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Change is the only constant
Mr. Adhir Mane: The prevalent law of nature I think is this thing that we have often heard but I think it is more important for us in the time that we are living today. To know that change is the only constant. If as colleagues, if as HR professionals, or if as business professionals we look at a thing. If you edge on the top of your mind, on the mindset that permanence or impermanence is only going to be the impermanence, that I think impermanence is going to be the only permanence if you edge that in there, top of the mind I think things will be easier for us. And that's the other meaning of change, the only constant.
Moving forward, here is a case where probably some of the organizations like Blockbuster. The hubris of managers played against these people. I think the head of the organization didn't think that Netflix was any challenge for this video rental company 2000 and you don't even hear the name of this organization any longer. So, Netflix took over and it's like history as they say. Nokia was one such example of how transformation and technology disrupted these organizations and this is where we look at how Samsung has done exceedingly differently in the organizational market space and how they are knocked-on the daylights of even the bigger organizations as well.
Closer home, you also look at organizations like Vodafone or Airtel. They were caught, not by surprise, they were knowing but I think what Jio did to the entire telecom sector is very phenomenal and very noteworthy. I think Jio is no longer a telecom company. Whenever we talked of Jio, we always spoke of that organization as a digital organization as opposed to a telecom. So, I think that's the kind of landscape that has changed and that's how organizations and business are changing for the better and what we held back with something which was there for yesterday is no longer to anything. The pace of change for the last 10-15 years has been so dramatic that newer organizations are on the horizon. They have taken over the other organizations which do not even survive for 10-15 years. The average lifespan of organizations is trunked out to 25 years. So that's the kind of landscape that I just want to share. There is a change that is happening, both in technology and business model. That's why I think the market forces are putting pressure on organizations to change for the better and change for the good, so to speak.
Conventional mechanism to scalable efficiency
Mr. Adhir Mane: As the changes are happening, I think gone will be the days where you know the traditional logic of building efficiency. Scalable efficiency would be the order of the day. I think when I mean scalable efficiency like if you are marketing in one particular zone add another two particular zone and another three particular zones and look at actually looking at a linear development that is something as a passe now I think that will no longer hold to, for an organization if they want to achieve the and mitigated phenomenal changes that are happening in our environment, I think the organization, the future we'll have to look at scalable learning and how do I embed that learning, and our culture and as for. And it's a combination of both the traditional logic and emerging mindset of building scalable learning as part of the DNA of an organization which help organizations grow to the next level and help mitigate the kind of technology onslaught or the disruption onslaught that is happening.
Here is another example which I am looking at: Xiaomi as a company where you know, they have also the traditional line of business which dishes out the mobile phone but they also have something different. The global community project that they have where they dish out 75% of the mobiles which are done up, and then they use a customer lens to look at what different things can come in, and probably how they can reshape the product, etc so that's where, how these organizations are remodeling from and scalable learning to incorporate in their culture and the DNA.
Another example, of course, Uber is very-very classical which is now becoming more of scalable efficiency, but I think the Uber air project we are looking at teleporting, etc. is something new so I think they have moved to the next level to look at teleporting of customers through airship or air travel, etc at a very local destination so that's something which probably will happen very quickly as we think, more quickly as we think.
The other part is also the conventional staffing mechanisms in an organization will go up phenomenal change, and the ‘gig’ is in here for us to stay and live with. In fact, in our parlance and Raymond, we have looked at designing as a category where we have started looking at needs to be brought on board. And how can gigs help us to design functions, etc? So, we are looking in a big way too, we have launched this app for freelance, which is reimagining the work, and we may not have a designer so we are not restricted to the designer, but we will have a participation of global designers who could come on our platform and help us develop market-ready designs and customer ready so to speak.
Future of Jobs is in Technology
Mr. Adhir Mane: I think, the revolution of I think over the last 5-10 years, we started hearing of Social Media Manager, Data Scientists, Employer Brand Manager and from an HR perspective, Mobile App Developers and Virtual Assistants have come in play cloud architects the whole thing is moved to the cloud, telemedicine solutions. I think the whole landscape of jobs, therefore, which probably didn't even exist 5-10 years back, or have come on the scene and completely disrupted the work process work systems.
So, some insights from Singularity, I think Singularity University based on the US well I think funding from Google, Facebook has happened with them and there is leading. It’s not a University in a traditional sense it is a University that develops projects which are very cutting edge and futuristic. And they have predicted a few other things which probably, which have been part of the entire futuristic outlook that they have.
I think they looked at the 3D coming in a big way by 20-22 in printing clothes in fact in Raymond also we did automated 3D printing of accessories. So, availability to the customer of the product, which are accessories like lapel pins, the cufflinks so and so we started with building 3D printed items around this, so they are looking at a very, very different world. They're looking at by 34 it will be a world, ruled by drones for logistics and delivery of your sample your foods. Electric cars will be half of our vehicle sales.
And as we go further, I think it's becoming a lot clearer that the advent of technology and the advent of disruption is so heavy that by 2020 we will have clean, efficient energy as one of the viable sources and a hundred percent will be on electricity generation, I mean some of these viable sources of energy will be in hundred percent generation of electricity. Robots are as we predicted that they will be part and parcel of the working environment, and it's also predicted that robots will have a relationship with people. I don't know how that would happen but that's one of the predictions. And I think the other thing which is probably one of the things which they have predicted is problems like cancer and poverty will be solved.
I think it's not far away 34, but I think because of the abundance of things that will happen solar will be, there is the fossil fuels will be put down. I think the whole geopolitics of the world will actually completely change, so to speak, and I think some of the issues that they are talking about connections of human cortices with the cloud, are some of the things that they are working on. Singularity has a very futuristic prediction on the DNA sequencing and how the Price Performance Equation comes down as technology overtakes. And that's a very interesting study which they have undertaken and it's a very insightful study that they have on their portals and in the programs that dish out to the whole global community.
So, these are some of the large trends some of these large organizations have looked at, and I thought it's important for us to have a peek into the future so that we are prepared, as a community, we are prepared for what is coming our way. Also, the other thing that I just wanted to understand is that, if you look at this matrix, from the y axis, if you look at the value addition and the x-axis expansion, these are the kind of rows which are more value-adding and highly exponential will be the future, so exponential growth will happen in some of these, we are professionals, leisure trainers.
Another thing genomics is something that we'll look at so exponential services that will be on offer, so jobs or work that is value adding, which will be more experiential nature will be one that will be taking center stage for the future. The success mantra, therefore, will be high tech, at the same time to be high touch and experiential is what I think of as jobs of the future or the work that will happen the future will be moving or wearing towards.
Flexibility in the work environment
Mr. Adhir Mane: So, let's reflect on what we need to do to build our futuristic organizations. I just speak into what happened with COVID. As a human race, we were never looking at working from home. Now, working from home has become the order of the day. I think we have started as a human race I believe that we have taken to working from home and some of the disruptions that happen in its stride very-very impactful and effective I think we already impacted, we already actually embedded a lot of flexibility within our systems processes.
As a human race, we cope well with the disruption that has happened in the environment. Newer business opportunities that companies are taking off have been large and who thought that a Swiggy will start delivering something like a home staple food, etc. to their services. So, I think that's what the agility of some of the organizers was pushed to the shore and they came out as winners in some of these things. A shift in the mindset has happened in this period from jobs to one of the tasks needs to be done to survive and thrive in this environment which was very, which was not very assertive I think which is still kind of uncertain around it.
Contactless offerings did come as one of the ways of delivering products and services, and this is what really, I'm talking about, the contactless delivery of the speakers probably which Amity is doing so very well. So, I think that is also taken and I think the whole learning space has shifted gears from a very physical to e-learning, and the whole school curriculum and the college curriculum has moved completely online. So, I think that's a big shift, which organizations and the learning institutes have adapted quite well. And digital in products and services has become very-very pronounced because of the advent of the emerging situation of COVID.
I think you want to take a peek into the future long, from a medium-term to long-term perspective as to what will be the shape of things to come for the future. So, organizations will have to build on the emerging reality of technology, disruptions. It will need a new mindset for a new normal and the role of analytics and digitisation will be a key differentiator for organizations of the future with a lot of IoT in place a lot of sensors in place the kind of data that you could have from machines and kind of data that you could have from people working will be of the next sort. And I think we as professionals in business, we'll have to probably look at how I can make use of this data to be a good use of the organization to predict the future very effectively and efficiently.
Working with the Gen-Z
Mr. Adhir Mane: We also need to have mechanisms for managing the interplay of machines and the human interface. I just spoke about that you know you need to have something like a humanoid, which will be working in the future so how do I look at humanoids as being part of that process and how do I build cultures to look at the interplay with the machines and humanoids?
I think organizations look to drive the emerging economy or emerging reality, I think the GIG will be a large part of our, the way we are organizing workforce rescaling the workforce to embrace automation. The kind of automation that's happening is probably in a world that I'm envisaging to say your cars already started being 3D printed but your textiles, start printing, what happens to deliver for that we have what happens to actually, the whole supply chain is disruption.
If you don't need large manufacturing set up what is the kind of disruption that will happen in the manufacturing as well as the supply chains of these allied manufacturing environments so that's one thing that will have to have welcoming Gen Z? So, typically, five generations are operating currently as we speak on the organization. So, welcoming the younger population, and then, therefore, how do they co-exist with the seniors and how do we have culture and process systems in an organization to have these millennials, and the Gen Z's to work side by side, probably, how do I build systems to make them part of the structures?
The other trend that I see probably will happen is no longer now organizations will be hierarchies, it will be network teams that will happen, a network of networks maybe they will be called that will be coming which will be projected, which will be handled as by this network does that work gets done through this network teams. And of course, overall, the organization has to hear both the technology, the human skills, etc. to embrace this digital upgrade. So, I think there are a lot of trends that I see personally which will be not maybe 10 years down the number maybe five-six years that we will start speaking or start experiencing some of these changes that I foresee.
Reinventing organizations with self-management
Mr. Adhir Mane: A new mindset as I spoke it's slightly, slightly more different, I think, self-management should be the order of the day it is a lovely book written by Frederick Laloux who writes about this concept of Self-Management wholeness and Evolutionary purpose in his book called Reinventing Organizations. Self-management actually will help us to reduce hierarchies and there's a lot of empowerment that is built as part of this so there'll be no hierarchies as presented here. It will team which will be self-directed and self-management that actually will be helping organizations in the kind VUCA of that we're looking to be nimble and focused and to be agile in their approach. There'll be no large corporate hierarchy which should exist with self-management as a thing that we're looking at.
The other part which is very philosophical also the fact that there's a new thing that we may look at is how do I bring the whole human being to work, not just a mass of a corporate entity that I work with, but help people in the organization to build or bring whole of their big their personal, as well as the professional side to work and how you will allow helping them to be creative at workplaces.
What is that you will help them to develop, which is very different not necessarily mandated by your performance program but is there something that we can do to make them more empowered to take projects which are not necessarily part of the business of the company. How do you allow them to bring themselves as individuals to the organization so therefore a lot of culture change there's a lot of orientation that organizations might have to do to bring this concept to life? And of course, organizations of today, and also future need to develop evolutionary purpose so that they can attract retain talent and grow, because, research has shown very-very vividly that the purpose-driven organizations will have a lot of attraction of newer talent. And that is where I think probably organizations will have to set or reset on the mindset that probably is currently operating to the mindset of self-management wholeness and evolutionary purpose.
Moving from predictive to prescriptive analytics
Mr. Adhir Mane: I spoke earlier as well about the role of analytics that is also going to be very critical. I'm not talking about the descriptive and diagnostic levels but typically talking about predictive and then taking that to a prescriptive level where you start prescribe what is possible what is not possible from analytic damage. We need to go very quickly I think the system in organizations currently are not necessarily geared to go to the predictive and descriptive level but typically, we need to get ourselves to move to that dimensions in a very short time so that the risk in the management and the risk within the environment are analysed and we develop better solutions, which we can address.
So typically, an example that comes to my mind is if you have a prediction of what the talent attrition, etc is going to be there, you can build programs to rephrase that talent. From a customer standpoint you know exactly which product which services I want to help you get to the next level. With predictive analytics will help you to predict what is the pattern that consumers are having which will help to grow my businesses, what is the area, what are the demography, which does happen when I think if you look at from a prediction standpoint, it will be pinpoint I can see that marketing people can use predictive analytics to predict what's going to be probably there as a part of the future or game plan from a strategic sales or marketing process.
Amalgamation of manpower and humanoids in organizations
Mr. Adhir Mane: This is another hot trend that I see personal humanoid will be becoming part of the entire workforce and we have got to learn to live with humanoids and the interactive robotic assistance. HDFC has already been launched this robotic assistance called IRA. And ISRO is looking at humanoids to replace humans in space so I think more and more technology sessions with robotic assistance will be part of the workplace. And the routine work definitely will get taken over by these humanoids and robots. I think there will be more complimentary but also organizations will have to build processes systems to be welcoming these technological changes for the future.
So, it's some, what we have in the future it will not any longer, we look at talent fit and the nine-box grid that we look at, we look at how we can start rescaling and automating systems. Measurement will be a value rather than input-output and an outcome basis so I think what is the value addition that people are bringing, is more valuable to organizations of today and tomorrow. That's how the measurement shift will happen. Technology, of course, it will be high touch where there'll be issues around culture empathy will be critical.
And how do I then have this High Tech and High Touch at the same time working in the machine together and that's the big challenge for organizations to bring technology at the same time having high touch from a culture and empathy standpoint and make sure that employees or colleagues who are working with feel wanted and they're just not a part of, they're not just cogs in the wheel, so to speak when these disruptions happen but future. The transformation will be all purpose-driven. I think the organization will have to get deeper into themselves and actually recast maybe their purpose why they are existing in the first place and drive the entire organization and redefine our purpose, rather than just business goals and so forth.
So that is a big shift I will say the purpose-driven organization will be the organizations, which will be having a long-lasting tenure in the future, and both from talent acquisition and retention it actually will help the organization in which you are crafting a buffer and looking at driving systems-based. Partner processes on HR, finance, etc., will move from just a partner to being the leader of that particular function and drive some of these functions very differently.
VUCA- A technology of vision and values
Mr. Adhir Mane: I just wanted to sum up that the changes which will happen later. One more thing which I just wanted to help your very interesting understanding and I thought I should make a mention of that and as we have always heard of this terminology called “VUCA”. I think I looked at “VUCA” in a very-very different sense. I think “VUCA” of volatility should we change to vision and values.
The leaders have to set visions for the organization and look at “VUCA” not just words but there's an opportunity for us to set visions and values or direction, and take them forward. But leaders are not to take just this thing that you invoke our standard stood for something else but to get the new according to me will start for understanding so leaders to connect dots and make meaning of such, the situation and get clarity to the organizations.
So, I think, turn that complexity bit into a clarity process or a clarity, offering. And the last one is the “VUCA” the ambiguity stands for agility and adaptability. If you the leaders in organizations and the senior leadership and across the board, and all the people across the board embrace “VUCA” as vision and values, understanding clarity and agility, I think we probably wouldn't be able to turn the “VUCA” upside down and look at a different proposition of “VUCA” which will help you move from a very fixed mindset or growth mindset. And I think as a team or as teams will grow every inch with these new challenges.
Dr. Nitin Batra - I just wanted to start with an understanding which is that in your perspective the old school talked about organisations focusing on stakeholders and then came the customer we also have beaten competition; we also have embraced technology and then we finally have the people that work within the organisation. Which one of these five you think is the most important for organisations to succeed and why?
Mr. Adhir Mane - I think I don't have a specific person and each of them one of them is higher or lower but I find that people from the device of the foundation, the structure on which everything else there but I don't hold a view that stakeholder and customers don't come second so I think I've rare literature on that people first customers second many of these kinds but I think I hold that it has to work in tandem for us to succeed as organisations shortly and the future probably 5- 10 years.
So, I think people from their deface and then no time I'm saying that people will have a limited sphere of influence and I think that is one on the top but I think for me there are right sort of people they will drive customers they will go back to stakeholders beat the competition. They are 1 notch above but I won't say that the entire thing but if organisations have to take a balanced view of many things and typically looking at different dimensions then, therefore, having the people dimension the culture the foundation you build the structures on top of and you would be able to look at the organisational future very differently.
So, these are all elements that have to come into play at an equal measure with people being the foundation that's what I would suggest.
Dr. Nitin Batra - So that structure makes sense. The biggest change will be everyone driven by a common purpose vision and goal and the reason I'm surprised is with all the technology changes, with the change and disruption that COVID has introduced is that you spoke about every bit with alacrity. This seems like something that has existed in management panels for the last 50 years. Have organisations not got this right? What is your perspective on purpose, vision, and common goals?
Mr. Adhir Mane - I think it’s in existence but I think what is more pronounced, what will happen is that organisations if you're reset, I think one of the core teams that is coming up as an important tenet is the what is the purpose, why does the organisation exist for, I think that if we start articulate or not it's not just the topics learns of management that it should be present. The purpose is to cascade where organisations probably make mistakes or probably not get it right is that the purpose then remains only in the boardrooms and probably it's just on their charts.
I think that process needs to be completely changed and how do I should build a purpose which is much more effective and then it gets cascade in the entire organization? This is an organization which will help me build and, in some sense, help me identify myself with the organisation at all across levels so that is becoming very core, though it had existed probably if you look at the research on purpose, I think the organisation which drives purposes which is a core tenet of the existing organisation have exceedingly well.
I think Business Research shows repeat examples of many of the successes because there were driven by a purpose and therefore that's what they are known it helps in a couple of dimensions help attract talent, retain talent and grow organisations so that look at newer generation maybe you will have a lot of people in the millions of people will get excited with the work the organisations are doing which has a purpose which is clearly defined, articulate and coming across the whole board. Mind your thoughts so easy to define and then live by it and then articulate and communicate it because many organisations do that but not all have got it right always.
Dr. Nitin Batra - So you spoke about purpose linked to addressing VUCA. So, the foundation of why we exist is the key answer to have before you can deal with any uncertainty. I just wanted to dig a bit deeper from an organisation specific perspective given your rich experience in multiple organisations. What changes might you see and hear I'm just going to highlight the fact that you've already talked about key trends right and key changes or key experimentations you talked about three things in particular self-managed teams allowing the employee to bring their whole self and as well as building an evolutionary culture rather than structure fit so to speak, I enjoyed looking at those three elements.
I just wanted to get your sense of what might trigger some of that change our organisations generally lazy in embracing some of these innovations whereas they may be forthcoming in embracing obvious innovations like digital and technology or can they be triggers that are already happening that will get them to embrace the three things that you spoke about. What is your perspective on that?
Mr. Adhir Mane - I will have to answer in a couple of contexts because there's a pre-COVID and COVID so I will try and break that I think it's not organizations that are lazy. Organizations have done many things like bringing ERP in the system but have they paid dividends in some yes some no because what needs to happen when you insert a large processor like ERP on excel that culture change that has to go in to make sure that everyone starts using that are, we still believe on Excel sheets and those kinds of things. They are the big tectonic shift that needs to happen when you bring these cutting-edge tools within the organisation. That's where probably most organisations don't get it right the softer part which is so important to bring technological changes.
So, I think also organisations I compare large organisations which are like Titanic when they take a long time to change their culture change, change their hierarchy and if you're not going to be nimble-footed in accepting those changes I think it's only a matter of time before some of this will be wiped out in the future. So, I think the newer trends will require a mix of technological embracement also we ought to look at what is a culture that I need to have an organisation which will build the deface and help me grow as organisations because that's going to be very important.
With gigs coming how do I have gigs in incorporated in my organisation to work along with my staff within the same place also how within India especially gig is not going to be very easy because there is a lot of labour law restriction which are currently working against some of these things but I think I quickly evolve over a while and hopefully it will all be a thing of the past shortly that we will probably see codes of it's not just fixed costs that we are looking at to have gigs. It's also the energy that you come from sometimes in my case, for example, I use gigs I will rather use gigs for the design is so I'll get global talent and not just talent from a certain particular pool that I will be looking at so I will get designers on those gigs and they will have short term contracts with me and work for me for a very specific project and they will be out.
So, a network of teams, gigs, and the whole process around building chords which are very agile building and making sure they get assembled to address the project get back to your original position except this is what is going to happen in the future.
I think with technology I mean let's look at this when I said Pre-COVID I remember about the same thing like how many of us probably were there looking at working from home through technology but we all of us have taken so I think at times there is a push from the market that has to happen for us to severely change the organizational structures and the process within the organization. Within probably a month all of us were communicating in this format what we had to do is possibly train managers who are not able to handle work from home as a structure so I think that's also weren't done efficiently at my place at least and many organisations have done that so we have taken to this change processes within very an overdue was not very planned right it was just kind of lap one thrust upon us but I think from an Indian context I see there's a lot of changes that have happened and we have taken up to these technological changes quite efficiently and effectively. So, organizations will be forced and compelled to change their way of working to such kind of disruptions like what we are experiencing today.
Also, there could be a planful disruption that organisations will build I'm in the classic example comes to my mind is Mahindra where probably we had a system where they are looked at an exponential organisations concept where their organisation which will build outside of the Mahindra tractor division they started rental cpractice to build the ecosystem of tractor, etc they are renting of tractor they have an organisation called ‘Traingo’ so they rent actually which is competing with their own tractor business they wanted to build the ecosystem in the farmer to lap up technology they started this ‘Traingo’ which is an organisation not build within the organisation it is outside of the organisation. So, what they were thinking that it would probably the internal antibodies will kill this new organisation concept so they took their whole organisation outside and they have started renting of tractors as a business, like a business line which in a way competes with their own tractor business internally but there are larger for a game plan in terms of focusing on building the ecosystem for the farmer community and then raising awareness of the technology. So, these are the ways and means of organisations doing some very different things.
Fascinating, if you read the book exponential organization there is a very valid concept of building organisation on the edges and it's very valid because large legacy organisations may not be able to dismantle and kind of dismantle the legacy structure and the culture. If the organizations of future can take these smaller projects outside like what Mahindra did build those so that avoid antibodies hitting them and kind of killing them before the time has come to build the structure probably then look at a line of business separately get investments there are or probably embedded in the existing but if you allow if you do not follow that many of times I've seen that these newer initiatives or newer structures in the organisations don't thrive and I like that concept of building exponential organisations on the edges which again it talked in that book about having a purpose for that particular organisation.
Therefore, there are many tenets it will be a matter of another discussion if you start talking about exponential and I'll not be able to finish in one hour but I'm just giving a gist that is a model structure that can be thought about how are build exponential organisations on the edges not to be killed by the antibodies within the organisation.
Dr. Nitin - We also are experimenting with organisations or similar track where we talk about islands of freedom so exponential organisation is taking the concept outside islands of freedom is essentially the same thing it's creating the freedom islands within the existing organisation. I wanted to ask a bit more fundamental question on the back of it I got a sense the vision that you were portraying you were looking at every employee bringing their true self rather than with a corporate mark and I like that analogy that you used every employee coming in with their full creativity.
I wonder what's holding organisations back today where they have to resort to an exponential organisation structure or an island organisation structure. what is it that they can do to bring the creativity of every individual which is part of the organisation right from the frontline through to the C-Suite?
Mr. Adhir Mane - I think it’s primarily the structures within the organisation, the culture which does not permit. I think probably the fear that we might not want to experiment with something which is so very dramatic and new.
Here I would like to give an example of a very boutique firm which when I was doing the study an exponential organisation and not exponential but the concept which Frederick mention self-management, hierarchy less, boundary-less, evolution purpose-led organisation. There is a very small firm which not small in terms of the size but it's small in terms of several people is a firm called Nishit Desai & Associates it’s a legal firm based in Mumbai and all the principles that Frederick talks about on this reinventing organisation implemented by this gentleman called Nishit Desai. He's a guy who's experimented, he doesn't have any goals for his people he says that the goals will limit the energy and the ability of people to achieve much more so they will be restricted by this thing. He had a system where people go and ask for salary raises as a personal thing like you have fix increment. It’s a small hundred 200 people company its legal firm that's one thing. What I experience on his thing is that you know he's converted even the lower rungs of his management to do something. He had some drivers and drivers have free time they were them made to maintain computers in their organisations so and then he's made them as employees who are spending very quality time so there are no titles, there are no hierarchies in that organisation and I witnessed them my colleagues on the call somewhere here both of us have witnessed that's the thing in live in action we tried making that one of our organisation in this fashion we're not completely succeeded, but we are on the path like we have an online tailoring business which we are trying to do an exponent but here when I wanted to benchmark as to what is happening outside and I very much found this organisation on this within our country and this is one organisation I would like to make a mention of and I know him personally so I was fortunate enough to go to his organisation, witness what is happening the first time.
So, there are these organisations which are taking these dramatic steps but I think the larger organisation legacy, the culture of conformity plays against a lot of these experimentations. I think it is all it has to start right from the board where they want to do kind of these experimentations if it's not sanction signed off at the highest level and we are not geared to handle this as an organisation better not venture probably you will muddle and mess up the whole thing but if like Nishit Desai case I can tell you Nishit himself is confirmed advocate of self-management and wholesomeness and evolutionary purpose as well as the philosophy drive organisation. So, it starts at the very top if they're not bought into this not just HR, not just marketing heads, not just the business heads would be able to drive this I think that culture change has to come right from the top.
Dr. Nitin Batra - This is one of the biggest constraints we hear from organisations we work with when we are thinking something like this is bureaucracy has so much sense of control hierarchy has so much sense of being able to predict things. In your experience you've experimented, you looked at an organisation which is a great example of how do organisations or you overcome that, or what is your advice to organisations to overcome that fear that counseling bureaucracy will mean giving up control?
Mr. Adhir Mane - We did a few things in our organisations to kind of de-limit or restrict bureaucracy like we did the very small thing we have not done a very large but I get down the approval levels and no approval need till senior managers travel. They were ready to move to travel on their own etc so these are smaller changes.
I think there are culture changes, policy changes, and systemic changes that have to be brought to so it will be a lot of issues that we need to tackle before we can embark on some of these I think if there's not a right set of leadership and there's not a right set of culture which I'm again and again coming because that's so very important to embrace and then that backed by systems processes should take care like if you have a culture but if you're not delineating that hierarchy are you not kind of breaking you're pursuing hierarchy by mechanisms processes like in our case we are allowing senior managers to travel without any sanction by the managers that were the first step that we wanted to bring in deep recognise by the environment. It will be a 3 front one is the culture the top management buying and at the end of systems processes that we need to do work which probably then will push this whole juggernaut or be hierarchy driven organisation into a change but I think again I'm repeating myself that the first to be bought by the senior leadership, not just at the senior functional head at the board level which then probably drives some of these changes.
Dr. Nitin Batra- Why do you exist? What kind of organisation do we want in the future that be clear and then start acting on tenets and it's a journey as you want to put? As work becomes horizontal you talked about data becoming important, and analytics becoming important I just wanted to see what your perspective on human resource or even managers managing people. how should they use data in a new way as far as people are concerned and how should they think about data in the future. what is your perspective on that?
Mr. Adhir Mane- That's my favourite topic I think HR has done very little in terms of data in terms of analytics. I mean data is housing all systems legacy systems, current system but we've not done much about in terms of analytics I think if you want to move from a level of descriptive to prescriptive there's a lot of journeys that have to capture so we will have to get to diagnostic prescriptive and predictive and then prescriptive. I think we want to churn out in HR I mean I'm just restricting myself to HR now but he is more of an MIS and not analytics. There are not many insights that have been developed and I think there is work that is happening at a massive scale I'm not saying it's not happening but I think even the legacy ERP systems some of them have still not really looked at turning their MIS to tools to churning out reports which are more predictive and prescriptive nature. So I think that's the journey that has started in right earnest but I think people within human resources themselves will have to get abreast of technology abreast of what the entire landscape of analytics looks like I think very little has been done in terms of understanding the subject in-depth and probably in my previous organisation when I was there we hired a host of data scientists who worked with us some of the modeling perspectives but that's just not enough I think we got to have models built bring insights to people to take action upon.
Today what's happening is probably insights are there but they're not necessarily predictive they are probably lag indicators that are given as predicted but I think if I looking at predictive, can my systems predict what is going to the performance of people if I hired through XYZ system can my systems predict attrition for my top talent and how do I rest their talent how do I ring face that talent at writing. Those are the kind of things we should be looking at and what is my pulse check helping me? Can I do pulse checks which are here and now when I do have modo ermeters today why should take action immediately and not do an engagement survey where the action gets taken after one year or maybe two years. I don't know so how do I build those structures can I have built a milometer on day-to-day basis which the systems today provide but how many start using that very well constructed is going to be a matter of time before we all.
But I think the journey for HR issue very quickly ramp up and move from your descriptive to the prescriptive stage at a very fast pace within the next one or two years and we don't have time to contempt that what systems but I think the newer mindset has to be incorporated across the HR fraternity at a very fast pace.
Dr. Nitin Batra - There are growth opportunities where data can play a huge role. In your sense just putting data scientists to solve this problem is not enough you know brings the insights as well as an organisation?
Mr. Adhir Mane - Data scientists will give you a model only maybe but I think the insights need to be developed by people who are working with that and then build solutions around that.
Dr. Nitin Batra- In your mind is this a relatively new area cutting edge area or is this something which some organisations at least have embraced and have reaped good benefits. So where does this lie in India or the Indian context?
Mr. Adhir Mane - So it's not a new area it’s now about 3-4-5 years older but I think we've not reaped benefits out of that like even the classical large model’s ERP, they don't have a structure to the system built to dish out directive processes. So, I've checked a lot of ERPs myself from an HR perspective not many of them house dimensional ERP. It’s there for a while in India and some organisations have started building robust processes and systems around this. Some have not just caught up because they're still believing in lag as a mechanism to drive some of these changes but yeah, we're getting there and I don't think it's not that nobody is aware of these things. I think they are aware but it's only the mass of data that’s there how do I get up meaning out of that and get work and help that data to work for me rather than just how's it in some data warehouse system and just not make use of that.
Dr. Nitin Batra - Talking immediately about one of the roles and responsibilities of HR in the current scenario of COVID-19 and I'm just going to take that to a broader level both today as well as in the future if you were to start with a blank sheet of paper and think about as a C-Suite member if you were to reshape strategy and reshape people strategy over the next at least six months as well as over the next year. What would you say is possibly a major change or a couple of changes that you would like today’s organisations to make?
Mr. Adhir Mane - Near immediate future what is happening because of COVID, there are a lot of things which are structures, etc getting disturbed. I think it’s an emergent situation where we don’t at a large structure, we have to get things done on the boat and rest the situation that is coming our way in our case. For probably, we didn't have a classical performance system but we move to a system which was very task base in this emergent situation because things not happening, things not working the way we wanted.
So, what do I do in terms of incorporating a newer scope power-based systems, etc? So, we said let's have goals which have a base and typically get going so the task will define in the short term to address emerging issues because of COVID, etc. but in the longer term, I think we definitely would need to have from a larger business sense. I would suggest that I'm talking about the larger business strategy, not just HR but I think we'll ever really look at the blue ocean as to look at what are the needs of people in the market which are not even emerging how to address those needs as a person just the things, we know that this is what organisation, therefore, this is the product and service I need this is gist out. So, look at the blue ocean is one of the approaches that the need felt in the future is not even the customers are aware of and build models of organisation to address those things in the future. I'm talking slightly longer not just the COVID immediate here but I'm talking longer if you do that coupled that with design thinking principles which we try and bring that build that in the organisation.
I think we will be able to set up the right strategy and business model therefore falling is an outcome which will help us tide in the future quite effectively. So, I think the organisation needs to look at blue ocean areas and spaces which probably will help them to develop niches which other organisations haven't even thought about.
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Moderated by: Dr. Nitin Batra